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  • osxandwindows - Friday, August 5, 2016 - link

    Finally!.
    A timely review from anandtech.
  • osxandwindows - Friday, August 5, 2016 - link

    Now, where is the HTC10 review, the new titan, and the note 7?
  • Ryan Smith - Friday, August 5, 2016 - link

    HTC 10: In progress (Josh is nearly done)
    Titan X Pascal: We weren't sampled
    Note7: No comment
  • ddriver - Friday, August 5, 2016 - link

    "Titan X Pascal: We weren't sampled"

    What do you expect? They send units to be reviewed for publicity, which requires the unit be reviewed immediately after it is received, and the review published the moment NDA expires. But if it takes you months after the official release to review stuff - why bother sending you samples? Keep on sloth gear and you might end up having to purchase all the hardware you want to review...
  • ddriver - Friday, August 5, 2016 - link

    And please don't go with the "but we go in depth" stuff - there is nothing preventing you from publishing detailed stuff later on. Because otherwise you are implying some absurdity like "we're too good for timely reviews" which is plain out silly.
  • zepi - Friday, August 5, 2016 - link

    I'm happy to read average results from techpowerup, guru3d on whatever random site I happen to find my way to.

    I come to Anandtech to find out WHY the cards perform the way they do, not to answer the question of HOW they perform.
  • ddriver - Friday, August 5, 2016 - link

    Sure, because it is all about you happiness...
  • mmrezaie - Friday, August 5, 2016 - link

    Well mine too. I do not care about others shallow reviews. I like how Anandtech goes deep about these reviews. Maybe it is a niche portion of visitors, but AT is being famous because of these reviews.
  • Fnnoobee - Friday, August 5, 2016 - link

    Deep in reviews? They're not even doing they're test on the latest AMD Crimson drivers, 16.7.3, or even 16.7.2, which released almost a month ago. Yeah, real deep testing there. /s
  • mkaibear - Friday, August 5, 2016 - link

    Ah, the irony of ddriver complaining that anandtech doesn't make him happy, then telling zepi off for pointing out anandtech makes him happy...
  • ddriver - Friday, August 5, 2016 - link

    You are imagining things, I did not state that it "doesn't make me happy", nor does this implies some website determines how I feel, the very notion is stupid on its face. As for zepi and all the other "happy" campers - it is understandable, they are "happy" because reading 'in-depth" materials cultivates an illusion of being smart, and even if they don't get the just of it, they will at least memorize a few phrases to add to their fanboy internet warrior arsenal ;)

    The point people seem to be missing is I was not complaining about "in-depth" articles, merely stating that vendors wouldn't be too motivated to send samples if they don't get immediate publicity for their products. And this site is not about anyone's happiness but the people who bought it to cram stupid ads in our faces for profit.
  • Alexvrb - Saturday, August 6, 2016 - link

    The whole basis of your argument is that they won't give samples to sites that "take too long". But they didn't give samples out to many sites that DO produce swift reviews, as Devo pointed out. Nice try though, I'm sure you'll find something else to whine about soon enough. I mean, uh, something else to educate us peons on. Since you're so insightful and clever.
  • mkaibear - Saturday, August 6, 2016 - link

    Oh dear. Calm down ddriver, you'll give yourself palpitations.

    It amuses me that you're quite happy to throw aspersions on other people's motives for liking the in-depth articles and yet don't spot the obvious counterpoint.

    Ah well. I have better things to do than argue with a troll. Ta-ta!
  • Fujikoma - Sunday, August 7, 2016 - link

    ddriver,
    In the matter of cultivating the illusion of being smart...
    It's 'gist of it' not 'just of it'.
  • ddriver - Monday, August 8, 2016 - link

    OK strawmen, you win because "grammar nazi" ;)

    BTW would love yo see your proficiency across half a dozen of languages.
  • Manch - Monday, August 8, 2016 - link

    It's gist, not just. If you're going to stand on your pedestal of superiority mocking all the small minded peons that disagree with your all knowing word, at least use proper grammar so they do not see that the God like keyboard warrior bleeds too, you twit...
  • ddriver - Monday, August 8, 2016 - link

    Gotta love it how with your illusions threatened you cuddle together like a herd of frightened sheep, to find comfort in your numbers, and strength to try and "make a point" using your limited arsenal of insinuations, grammar nazism and personal attacks. Hopefully you do realize that this only adds further proof to my point, not that it needed any, as it is already totally obvious. Try harder next time...
  • snowmyr - Tuesday, August 9, 2016 - link

    You're right. You seem very happy.
  • Michael Bay - Saturday, August 6, 2016 - link

    >ddriver
    >expecting any self-awareness
  • at80eighty - Saturday, August 6, 2016 - link

    he's explaining why your wall of whining in response to Ryan's brief & matter-of-fact answer is irrelevant. you want average/sub-par reviews? plenty of sites available.
  • Samus - Sunday, August 7, 2016 - link

    You are free to go elsewhere. Just about everyone else is content waiting for the most detailed and balanced reviews of products on the Internet. For free no less. 20 years ago you had to pay CR or someone like that for unbiased reviews.
  • close - Tuesday, August 9, 2016 - link

    Then isn't it ironic that you always seem to think that it's all about yours ddriver?
  • snowmyr - Tuesday, August 9, 2016 - link

    compared to your happiness? I mean you seem so upset you replied to your own post all because you misread the statement "We weren't sampled" like it was a complaint instead of just a statement of fact. Entitled people suck balls.
  • DominionSeraph - Friday, August 5, 2016 - link

    Like the GTX 960 review?
  • Morawka - Friday, August 5, 2016 - link

    guru3d is right up there with anandtech on deep dive analysis.
  • damianrobertjones - Saturday, August 6, 2016 - link

    Sire like Engadget will eventually die as sites like The Verge and Engadget thrive. Why? They're shiny, lame, breeze over the details and make people feel great about their purchases. In other words: They're filled with absolute rubbish, paid for articles, which annoys the heck out of me.

    Just look at Tom's Hardware... they might as well shut down.
  • Chaser - Saturday, August 6, 2016 - link

    Really? they've gotten great, indepth reviews out on all the Nvidia Pascal cards much faster than here.
  • Vorl - Monday, August 8, 2016 - link

    That comment only works if they EVER give the reviews. There are cards they have never reviewed... so you don't get your answers no matter how long you wait.... I am not talking specific manufacturers, I am talking whole series of cards like the 960.. and so far the 1070 and 1080... I poke at this a lot because I have been coming here for years, it's even in one of my opening tabs for my browser... but they are starting to lose my faith in their ability to remain relevant.

    I remember when they used to do roundups and such.. haven't seen one of those in quite a while. It's not like the video world is saturated with news all the time and keeping them busy.
  • Ranger1065 - Saturday, August 6, 2016 - link

    I am 100% with you on this ddriver, screw anyone who disagrees. Criticism is needed.
  • Ryan Smith - Sunday, August 7, 2016 - link

    Criticism is more than welcome; it's how we get better.=) I do ask that it be constructive, though.
  • Greeba77 - Wednesday, August 10, 2016 - link

    I don't subscribe to some of the bitchier comments on here and I do read Anandtech because of the depth of the reviews. I do feel a trick or two has been missed on this one, because since the 1080 and 1070 review, the results came out elsewhere to show the low level API performance on the Pascal cards seemed to be a problem (the Vulkan Doom benchmarks were awful compared to the RX480). I was hoping this review would include a deeper dive in to this as it's a potential question mark on the 1060's future proofing vs the RX480.
  • Thermalzeal - Monday, August 15, 2016 - link

    I will please ask that you use "other" review sites for your insatiable impatient needs.

    No way AnandTech will be left out because it's the only site that Industry professionals actually read these days. And if for some reason this catastrophe happened...I'm pretty sure one call to Anand, and he'll walk right into Jen Hsun's office and take the card right out of his computer. Especially now that he's just hanging out at Apple. ,
  • Colin1497 - Friday, August 5, 2016 - link

    Clearly the last couple months have been unfortunate, as whatever dynamic has happened has corresponded with the most exciting time in the GPU world in years. The question is where he can get back on track. I doubt that Ryan is unaware of all of the issues surrounding this. We will see how he responds. :)
  • just4U - Saturday, August 6, 2016 - link

    100% certain he's aware of the criticisms.. as he does comment on some of them. Also a likely reason why Daniel Williams was brought on board to help with overflow.. Although I'd really like to see Ian take a stab at the video card reviews.. (just for sh... and giggles) as processors are not so interesting these days with incremental bumps... but they all have their niche areas to work with so whatever.

    The only real criticism I have would be the waiting game.. If Ryan says something will be ready on a certain date (or in a few days..) and then it takes weeks.. well shoot that's disappointing and shouldn't happen. But hey.. I was one of those happy with the Preview the Review was just icing on the cake (even if I disagree on the 480 vs 1060 assessment)

    Ryan's good at what he does late or not, many of us look forward to Anandtech's takehome on new Video Cards.
  • ridic987 - Sunday, August 7, 2016 - link

    what about his 480 vs 1060 assessment do you disagree with?
  • just4U - Monday, August 8, 2016 - link

    He puts it at and around 10% faster than the RX480. The feel I am getting from most who have hands on experience with both cards suggest the 480 might be a little better.

    It reminds me of the 380/960 comparisons online initially.. both excellent products overall but after a lot of time with both I kind of felt ripped off by the 960 which I paid a premium for and it certainly wasn't as good as the 380.
  • Cygni - Friday, August 5, 2016 - link

    Then go start your own review website, nerd. This one ain't yours, and nobody cares about how you think it should be run.
  • Devo2007 - Friday, August 5, 2016 - link

    Actually, very few (if any) sites were sampled Titan X Pascal cards - has nothing to do with Anandtech's review schedule.
  • Nagorak - Saturday, August 6, 2016 - link

    They didn't sample anyone on Titan X it seems like.
  • Tabalan - Friday, August 5, 2016 - link

    What about RX470? It would be nice to see some decent AIB cards compared. Also, I really would like you to add 2 charts in summary - overall performance and perf/$. This would help comparing your review to other reviews without going though all benchmarks and game tests.
  • Flunk - Friday, August 5, 2016 - link

    It doesn't seem like any of the large tech sites were sampled GTX Titan Xs. All the reviews I've seen are from small sites, most of which I've never heard of before. Maybe they're just borrowing retail cards from owners.
  • fanofanand - Friday, August 5, 2016 - link

    I read that Nvidia wasn't sampling Titan X's to any publications. It's possible that those smaller sites are run by hobbyists who bought the card themselves.
  • jabbadap - Friday, August 5, 2016 - link

    Just wondering are you doing those great in depth HTPC oriented graphics card comparisons in future.
  • HideOut - Friday, August 5, 2016 - link

    Or see review for the S7 since its just the same stuff.
  • Psyside - Saturday, August 6, 2016 - link

    Please do NOT let Joshua Ho review ANY Samsung product anymore!
  • fanofanand - Saturday, August 6, 2016 - link

    I agree with this, his reviews read like advertisement for Apple.
  • rtho782 - Sunday, August 7, 2016 - link

    And the 960! We're missing the immediate predecessor to this for comparison...
  • Ballist1x - Monday, August 15, 2016 - link

    What the review is missing is that the GTX 1060 is actually a replacement in pricepoint to the GTX 970 and therefore has only increased performance by 10-20% in the space of 2 years for the same price.

    The GTX 960 is a different price segment completely and therefore is not such a direct comaprison.
  • nathanddrews - Friday, August 5, 2016 - link

    Too bad the $249 MSRP models aren't available anywhere. This is essentially marketed as a 960 replacement, but priced like a 970 replacement IRL.
  • Cygni - Friday, August 5, 2016 - link

    Cards at $249 have been in stock off and on with Newegg since launch. They may not be available right this exact second, but you shouldn't be waiting too long for stock at MSRP, as the article talks about.
  • Wall Street - Friday, August 5, 2016 - link

    Yeah, it is amazing how many times the text "$249" appears in this review of a $299 card and a $314 card. Ryan is fully feeding into nVidia's price anchoring. I think that if the price chart shows $249 for the GTX 1060, then it should also show $299, because the $249 cards are nowhere to be found and explicitly not the ones he looked at.
  • Ryan Smith - Friday, August 5, 2016 - link

    The entire Founders Edition things makes reviewing a bit more complicated. But since it's purely a stock card from a performance perspective, it's a very reasonable proxy for the $249 cards. No GTX 1070 is going to under perform the 1060FE, because that's the minimum specs allowed to begin with.
  • Wall Street - Saturday, August 6, 2016 - link

    With Turbo Boost, I am not 100% sure that the single fan Zotac or EVGA 1060s which are the actual $249 cards will maintain the same clocks as the founders edition will.
  • Samus - Sunday, August 7, 2016 - link

    What's depressing (for me anyway) is this card consistently outperforms my 970 in the games I play...and my 970 cost substantially more just a year ago. It's pretty unusual for a mainstream card to overtake an enthusiast card in one generation.
  • Death666Angel - Sunday, August 7, 2016 - link

    Well, this was a full node shrink (no half node) and a much more advanced process (FinFET), so unfortunately, it was very likely. However, you've had a good year of great performance out of your 970, so not too much to complain about there. :D
  • Samus - Monday, August 8, 2016 - link

    True. The 970 will hold tight until I eventually graduate from 1920x1200 to 2560x1600.
  • spbx - Friday, August 5, 2016 - link

    after anand left thing weren't the same :(
  • BrokenCrayons - Friday, August 5, 2016 - link

    So true! There was a huge decline in the use of capital letters and punctuation by readers in the comments section.
  • Cygni - Friday, August 5, 2016 - link

    Yeah, the influx of the same terrible negativity posters from other websites has really been annoying lately.
  • Morawka - Friday, August 5, 2016 - link

    That's what popularity and the reddit crowd will bring.
  • lilmoe - Saturday, August 6, 2016 - link

    This is becoming the next "where is Kai" thing. This is getting redundant and, frankly extremely rude. Stop. I started enjoying some of their content AFTER Anand left.

    There's quite a bit of bias, but regulars can ignore all that and focus on the important info they're looking for.

    We made it clear to them that we expect better in terms of quality and timely delivery. I'm sure they listened and took 7 Notes.
  • TallestJon96 - Friday, August 5, 2016 - link

    I think this is the best card of NVIDIAs lineup so far. Generationally, it destroys the previous card, which frankly the 960 sucked, especially compared to the 760 or the 970. The 960s only saving grace was the $200 price point. 2gb wasn't good, the 970 crushed it, the 380 was a better deal, and even the 760 beat it sometimes.

    Compared to the 960, its 80% faster, has 3x times the ram, and costs $50 more.

    Most importantly, this card will be a success vecause it is the card that can easily handle 1080p60 at a good price. Like the 970 before it, the gtx 1060 handles 1080p with ease, and will continue to do so with 15% more performance than the 970 and 2gb more ram.

    I will recommend this card to many people.
  • fanofanand - Friday, August 5, 2016 - link

    I love that people keep claiming this is a $250 card. Maybe someday, but that day isn't today.
  • bananaforscale - Friday, August 5, 2016 - link

    Maybe it is, excluding (VAT and import) taxes, margins and such.
  • HollyDOL - Saturday, August 6, 2016 - link

    Cheapest model (from Zotac) around here costs $326 :-(
  • eddman - Saturday, August 6, 2016 - link

    There are four $250 1060s on newegg, with the same specs as the FE version.
  • fanofanand - Saturday, August 6, 2016 - link

    You mean the listings titled "out of stock"? Of course there are higher priced versions available. Surprise surprise.
  • eddman - Saturday, August 6, 2016 - link

    As if 480s aren't out of stock. The point is, there ARE $250 1060s. Availability is another matter.
  • bug77 - Monday, August 8, 2016 - link

    It says "ships in 3-5 days" on most of them, so I don't see your problem.
  • Mugur - Sunday, August 7, 2016 - link

    In my country the Zotac mini 1060 is cheaper with the equivalent of 25$ than the cheapest RX 480 8 GB...
  • MarkieGcolor - Friday, August 5, 2016 - link

    Yes 960 sucked, but this card isn't much better. It can't sli, and you should still recommend at least a 1070 over this.
  • Morawka - Friday, August 5, 2016 - link

    just imagine how good the mobile 1060 will be. finally a $1000 laptop that can play 1080p @ 60FPS on High (not ultra)
  • zeeBomb - Friday, August 5, 2016 - link

    life is good
  • fanofanand - Friday, August 5, 2016 - link

    The 1060 costs 30% more (reference to reference) and provides 15-30% more performance. Sounds about right, it's up to the customer's wallet to decide which one works best for them, though the 1060 seems a tiny bit overkill for 1080P gaming.
  • Morawka - Friday, August 5, 2016 - link

    nah it's not overkill.. Look at the 99th percentile numbers on all games.. thats the true number you need to be worrying about unless you have Gsync displays. if it's running 58FPS, then it might as well be 30FPS due to vsync.
  • eddman - Saturday, August 6, 2016 - link

    Turn off vsync then.
  • Simplex - Sunday, August 7, 2016 - link

    "if it's running 58FPS, then it might as well be 30FPS due to vsync"
    Ridiculous statement. Ever heard of triple buffering?
  • bug77 - Monday, August 8, 2016 - link

    If you're using adaptive v-sync or fastsync (which you should), then 58fps is 58fps.
  • eddman - Saturday, August 6, 2016 - link

    30% more that what?

    There are 1060s at $250 and 8GB 480s at $240 on anandtech, unless you're comparing it to the 4GB 480.
  • eddman - Saturday, August 6, 2016 - link

    Damn, I meant newegg. This is what happens when you skip lunch.
  • fanofanand - Saturday, August 6, 2016 - link

    You keep saying that but there are no 1060s that can be bought for $249. MSRP is meaningless when none sell at that price.
  • eddman - Saturday, August 6, 2016 - link

    ...and you keep at it as if it isn't the same with 480s. I just looked for 8GB 480s on newegg. All out-of-stock except for one model that is going for $400!!!

    I suppose you've never heard of shortages. There are $250 1060s. They simply sell as soon as they get restocked.
  • Dr. Swag - Friday, August 5, 2016 - link

    Any word on the progress of the rx 480 review? I haven't seen any good dives on the Polaris architecture so I'm really stoked on your review!
  • Ryan Smith - Friday, August 5, 2016 - link

    I want to do a bit more on the Polaris architecture, but it will have to wait until after RX 470 and RX 460.
  • Dr. Swag - Friday, August 5, 2016 - link

    Ah OK. Thanks for the response!
  • xenol - Friday, August 5, 2016 - link

    Anyone else chuckle at the heatsinks past the fan that apparently aren't attached to anything?
  • DanNeely - Friday, August 5, 2016 - link

    Yeah those stubs are cosmetic; but there's not much to them either.

    Tom's has a detailed teardown of the cooler. A few ornamental fins on the front edge with the entire actual heatsink between the blower and case exhaust holes. The 1080's is about the same.

    http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/nvidia-geforce...
    http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/nvidia-geforce...
  • tipoo - Friday, August 5, 2016 - link

    Pretty funny, main heatsink comes off and that little heatsink nub remains. Maybe it manipulates airflow to the fan, at most? Or, more likely, it's just cosmetic to make this look like a bigger GPU.
  • Mr Perfect - Friday, August 5, 2016 - link

    When you inevitably do a custom card round up, could you please get some blower style fully exhausting cards in there? It would be immensely helpful for the SFF crowd who can't stuff a tipple fan behemoth in the case, much less dump 120 watts of heat in there. Off hand, Asus has the Turbo, Gainward has one and Galax has another.
  • fanofanand - Friday, August 5, 2016 - link

    When was the last time Anandtech did a custom card roundup? They don't really do that sort of thing anymore.
  • fanofanand - Friday, August 5, 2016 - link

    Out of curiosity I searched the site, the last comparison of ANY sort was completed on 11/20/13 by you guessed it, Anand himself. Far as I can tell, there has not been a single comparison article written since Anand's departure.
  • Mr Perfect - Friday, August 5, 2016 - link

    Sssh! I was trying to get one going, if they hear you they won't do one. >_<
  • Ryan Smith - Friday, August 5, 2016 - link

    Anand hasn't written a video card article in about 8 years. You may want to check the byline on that article again.

    Anyhow, I don't know if we'll do a custom 1060 roundup in particular, but you will be seeing more custom card reviews. This is what Dan Williams is on staff for.=)
  • Mr Perfect - Saturday, August 6, 2016 - link

    Excellent, looking forward to Dan doing some custom card reviews.
  • fanofanand - Saturday, August 6, 2016 - link

    I said "of any sort". I actually read the article again because he always had a way of explaining things. I wasn't complaining, this site isn't a "comparison" kind of site.
  • Ranger1065 - Saturday, August 6, 2016 - link

    While the same can't be said of the motherboard section, that is an excellent point and something that I very much regret as well. A certain Swedish gentleman does an excellent job in that area, but OMG the English....
  • Ranger1065 - Saturday, August 6, 2016 - link

    Perhaps a custom 1080 review by Christmas then. I mean Christmas 2016...
  • xenol - Friday, August 5, 2016 - link

    Blower styles are limited to basically the reference design these days, which is now basically limited to the FE cards. The real problem with some of these AIB SKUs is that they're wider than normal. I couldn't fit a MSI Gaming X in my FTZ-01 because the power connectors were too close to the side of the case. I was able to fit a EVGA ACX 3.0 SC in there though and it runs relatively well. It does help the case is compartmentalized more or less.
  • Colin1497 - Friday, August 5, 2016 - link

    I know you've been behind, but Rise of Tomb Raider is running faster in DX12 than DX11 on AMD and about the same on both with the 1060 with the latest patches, I believe. Probably what you did with Hitman would be more appropriate? Maybe a one page followup article that includes some analysis and testing with the latest drivers/patches?
  • prisonerX - Friday, August 5, 2016 - link

    It's almost comical the way Anandtech cover for Nvidia. Benchmarking Gameworks titles without disclosure, slyly avoiding DX12 and Vulcan game benchmarks (you know, what people will mostly be using these cards with, going forward) that favor AMD.

    I don't blame them, getting pre-release cards to write reviews is their bread and butter, and Nvidia has not been shy about punishing those who do not toe the line.
  • DominionSeraph - Friday, August 5, 2016 - link

    Aw, look at the fanboy complain that it isn't "fair" because they didn't only present AMD's strengths and Nvidia's weaknesses, but instead used tests representative of the gaming landscape.
  • beck2050 - Monday, August 8, 2016 - link

    Nvidia has driver teams as well. Plus 22% with the latest Dx12 Hitman. 1060 will compete very well. Cooler faster less energy, and priced accordingly.
  • eddman - Saturday, August 6, 2016 - link

    So much misinformation still going around. Gameworks effects are either CPU only, which have ZERO effect on the GPU, no matter the brand, like waveworks in just casue 3, or are GPU based, which can be DISABLED, like witcher 3's hairworks or HBAO+, or RotTR's HBAO+ and VXAO.
  • Ryan Smith - Friday, August 5, 2016 - link

    The benchmark suite was finalized back in May, when the DX12 version of Tomb Raider was rubbish. I talk a bit more about this in another comment, but basically we only periodically update the benchmark suite due to the amount of work involved and the need to maintain a consistent dataset for Bench. The plan is to do another update in September.
  • Colin1497 - Saturday, August 6, 2016 - link

    I understood that situation. Last thing you needed was to change the games when you were running behind. Just commenting on the change in the landscape over 2 months. Doom and Vulcan is obviously another thing. Looking forward to what you do next.
  • Simplex - Sunday, August 7, 2016 - link

    It's "Vulkan", not "Vulcan".
  • MarkieGcolor - Friday, August 5, 2016 - link

    Please include 4k, and crossfire/sli setups in your benchmarks. Otherwise I do not care about this late review.
  • xenol - Friday, August 5, 2016 - link

    4K seems kind of pointless, we all know it's going to be sub 40FPS which few people are going to recommend this card for 4K gaming.

    Also what's the point of SLI on a card that doesn't support it?
  • AnnonymousCoward - Friday, August 5, 2016 - link

    If 4K is pointless then so are most of the 2560 tests which use ultra settings and produce <60fps.

    4K with medium settings, no AA would be much more interesting to me.
  • MarkieGcolor - Saturday, August 6, 2016 - link

    True. I'm just saying it would be interesting.

    I understand that if you want 1060 sli you should just buy 1080, but I feel Nvidia disabled sli to keep the second hand market at bay and sell more new expensive cards.
  • thkg - Friday, August 5, 2016 - link

    Well the price landscape is not all accurate.
    The cheapest 1060 you can buy right now cost $299 (the FE model).
    You right now can buy a RX 480 8G from newegg for $239 (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N8...
  • Ryan Smith - Friday, August 5, 2016 - link

    The pricing situation is complex at best, and frustrating at worst. At various times when I wrote this article $249 GTX 1060s and $239 RX 480s went in and out of stock. At the moment it was published, all 480s were out of stock and $249 and $279 1060s were in stock.

    The article is written with the best general advice I can give, which is based on the idea that manufacturers are frequently restocking the MSRP parts. But since things fly off the shelves so quickly, there's no real consistency day to day. (Or even hour to hour; that 480 is out of stock already). Ultimately you can get a $249 1060 about as easily as you can get a $239 480, which is to say not very (and it's not as if higher priced cards are usually any more available).
  • eddman - Saturday, August 6, 2016 - link

    Really?!! Do you know what shortage is? I clicked on that link and it said... not available.

    There ARE 1060s at $250 already. They are just hard to get.

    http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N8...
    http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N8...
    http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N8...
  • eddman - Saturday, August 6, 2016 - link

    Wrong link for the second one. This is it:

    http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N8...
  • eddman - Saturday, August 6, 2016 - link

    It seems my brain isn't cooperating. Those links are correct. This is the additional link:

    http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N8...
  • Fnnoobee - Friday, August 5, 2016 - link

    Really, Anandtech? Date of this review is Aug. 15 and yet you're using Nvidia's latest driver but AMD Crimson 16.7.1? Really?! I could see if you published this around July 19 (you know, when the card actually hit shelves), but 16.7.2, which fixed the power draw and thermal issues on RX 480 and increased performance overall across the board, released July 7, almost a month ago! 16.7.3 released July 29, which other than providing bug fixes added a significant 10 percent performance boost for RoTR which you benchmarked. I could see if you were ignorant of these releases but you even published an article on your site on July 29. I knew right away before even looking at the details of your test set up when I saw your benchmarks on RoTR, because they're far lower than numbers I've consistently achieved on the benchmark at the same settings you have on my RX 480 at stock clocks (OC I achieved about 6-7 percent more). If you can't be bothered to properly update your tests to the latest drivers and software for both product lines so ALL products get a fair shake, why even bother reviewing or comparing a product in the first place? It smacks of laziness and not being very fair and objective.
  • Ryan Smith - Friday, August 5, 2016 - link

    Thanks. 16.7.1 is actually a typo. All testing was done against 16.7.2 for the RX 480.

    As for 16.7.3, this came out much too late to be included in this review (since it takes longer than a week to produce). However I will need to go back and update the RX 480 results for that driver build for the forthcoming 470/460 reviews.
  • bill44 - Friday, August 5, 2016 - link

    Before I read it, does it mention audio and supported audio sampling rates?
    @Ryan Smith
    I know.........not at hand.......blah, blah.
    No one knows, it's not on the spec sheet, not in reviews, nowhere to be found.
  • Ryan Smith - Friday, August 5, 2016 - link

    I don't have that information or a means to test it. But was there a specific sampling rate you're looking for?
  • bill44 - Saturday, August 6, 2016 - link

    Thank Ryan.
    Yes please, 88.2KHz and 176.4KHz. Likelihood is that the other sampling rates will be supported.
  • anandreader106 - Friday, August 5, 2016 - link

    First thought: Still no Doom benchmarks being factored in?

    Ryan,

    You are my favorite GPU reviewer. Period. However I do think I need clarity on your Final Words.

    It's my opinion that DirectX 11 performance is "good enough" from Nvidia and AMD thus far in this new generation. So I'm left wondering, why aren't you going more in-depth with DirectX 12 and Vulcan titles/performance? Wouldn't that give us the best indication of what to expect going forward?
  • cknobman - Friday, August 5, 2016 - link

    The best indication you will get is that when reviewing Nvidia cards none of these things will be addressed?

    Why, because Nvidia is not doing so hot at them and it would not make their cards look better than AMD's.

    Look at the other 1060 benchmarks and comparisons and you will see that:
    A. Nvidia is behind on dx12 and the 480 => 1060
    B. @1080p the 1060 is overkill and a $200 480 4gb (or even a $180 470) is all you need
    C. Because of Nvidia's "founders edition" price gouge model most 3rd parties are trying to get away with charging more than $250. Reality is most 1060's are >= $270 which makes the AMD 480 the better buy.
  • StrangerGuy - Friday, August 5, 2016 - link

    It's funny the AMD fanboys always harp about the evil $300 1060 and never mentions how their favorite $200 480 is essentially vaporware and 8GB versions price gouged to death.
  • Ryan Smith - Friday, August 5, 2016 - link

    "It's my opinion that DirectX 11 performance is "good enough" from Nvidia and AMD thus far in this new generation. So I'm left wondering, why aren't you going more in-depth with DirectX 12 and Vulcan titles/performance? Wouldn't that give us the best indication of what to expect going forward?"

    The benchmark suite only gets updated periodically. It's a lot of effort to design and validate a testing sequence, and then run (and possibly re-run) 30 some-odd cards through it. So adding games has the net effect of slowing things down even further.

    At this point we're updating the testbed to Broadwell next month, at which point we'll refresh the games list as necessary.

    Though I will note that there's a reason we run so many (9) games: one game is too small of a sample size. Right now Doom is the only Vulkan game on the market,* so while it's a very interesting first look at Vulkan, it's not something that's going to be representative of Vulkan as a whole.

    * We'll ignore DOTA 2 since it's not meaningfully GPU limited on these fast cards
  • CHADBOGA - Friday, August 5, 2016 - link

    Doom is one of those few games out there that will inspire people to go one way or the other and should be included in your benchmark suite.
  • Scali - Saturday, August 6, 2016 - link

    Aside from that, the Vulkan implementation in DOOM is not yet complete.
    As you can read in the DOOM FAQ, they use AMD shader intrinsics extensions, but no equivalent for nVidia. Likewise, on AMD hardware, async compute is enabled, on nVidia it is not yet. The FAQ says they're still working on optimizing the code with nVidia.

    While it may be interesting to benchmark DOOM's Vulkan implementation to get an idea of where we currently stand, I don't think it is mature enough at this point to say anything about performance in Vulkan games in general, or how AMD and nVidia stack up, since you're comparing apples to oranges at this point.
  • rhysiam - Friday, August 5, 2016 - link

    I too am curious as to why the whole DX11 vs 12 comparison wasn't even raised. DX12 does not appear once in the conclusion page. The 1060 is the better DX11 card, no question. It's early days for DX12, but what we're seeing so far is enough to suggest things may well be quite different. The three DX12 titles in the review (Hitman, RoTR & AoS) are the three strongest games for the 480 by far. Add Doom via Vulkan into the mix and you have 4 NextGen API titles that put the 480 at or above 1060 performance. Of course we can't make hard and fast recommendations based on a few titles like this, but surely it's worth mentioning at least, if not exploring in detail?

    This might be a minor point except for the fact that you dismiss the 4GB 480 based on speculation/extrapolation that its VRAM won't be enough to keep it competitive future demanding titles. Surely those demanding titles will increasingly be (or at least offer) DX12 though? So if you're advocating a 1060 over the 480 4GB based on longevity and future performance, the DX12 question has to be raised doesn't it?
  • rj030485 - Friday, August 5, 2016 - link

    Think Ryan needs to work on his math. He says the 1060 is 17% faster than the 480 in GTA V when the difference more like 30%.
  • Ryan Smith - Friday, August 5, 2016 - link

    Oh geeze. This is what happens when you read the wrong column in a spreadsheet. Thanks!
  • onemoar@gmail.com - Friday, August 5, 2016 - link

    I don't know why anands witcher 3 scores are so low
    I am pushing 80FPS in places with everything turned up to ultra and post effects on with no hairworks
  • Ryan Smith - Friday, August 5, 2016 - link

    Since there is no standard benchmark, it depends on the area you use. We purposely picked a section of the game that would be among the most demanding.
  • Arbie - Friday, August 5, 2016 - link

    I really want to 'need' a new graphics board for FPS gaming. But I can't find any such games worth playing that need one. They're all console ports with mediocre graphics and even worse mechanics. And my GTX 770 is more than enough even on 2560x1440. I still read about the new cards but... how long...
  • Simplex - Sunday, August 7, 2016 - link

    "And my GTX 770 is more than enough even on 2560x1440"
    So you play at sub-30 fps and/or low details?
  • Arbie - Sunday, August 7, 2016 - link

    Simplex - Can't see how you jumped to that conclusion, so I guess you're just trying to be contentious. FOR THE GAMES I *DO* PLAY the 770 is fine. That's my point, and the reason I personally am not in the market.

    I don't check frames per sec unless the gameplay is laggy. When it is - which is rare with the 770 - I dial down the eye-candy. Beyond a certain point that doesn't matter anyway, compared to game design & mechanics. The problem is that there are NO NEW FPS GAMES that deliver on those two aspects. My benchmark game is Crysis (and its siblings) which I run at "Very High" settings. There are a few games now with equally good graphics, but nothing even compares for fluidity, control, physics, level design, AI quality etc etc. Until there is, I won't need a new card. I wish it were otherwise.
  • just4U - Friday, August 5, 2016 - link

    A note for Nvidia since they will likely read these comments (..as will AMD)

    I've said there is a market for a reference design using a stylish reference cooler (like what you see on the Titan series..) For some it's worth the $50 admission. If your going to do that at the lower end but charge a premium... make sure it's got the same goodness as the upper end models.

    Your 1060 Founders might sell.. but it won't sell as well as it could have if you'd gone all out on the cooler like you have for the higher end models. Plastic? Ugh.. No full backplate? Please.. Come on!
  • AnnonymousCoward - Friday, August 5, 2016 - link

    Now that you mention it, I've got a note for NVIDIA too: support the VESA standard Adaptive-Sync already! My monitor supports it, why won't you.
  • Gigaplex - Monday, August 8, 2016 - link

    If they do that, then there would be no reason for manufacturers to produce G-SYNC monitors. They'd all flock to Freesync compliance.
  • Beararam - Friday, August 5, 2016 - link

    Great review, Ryan. Hope all the negative comments don't bring you down. Probably a lot going on behind the scenes that we don't see.
  • VulkanMan - Friday, August 5, 2016 - link

    Why no encoding tests?
    Both camps support H.265 HEVC encoding & decoding.
  • Ryan Smith - Saturday, August 6, 2016 - link

    I've looked into it, but I haven't found any good encoding tests right now, particularly those that use HEVC. But if you happen to come across something, then I'm all ears.=)
  • Mikuni - Saturday, August 6, 2016 - link

    Avidemux works pretty well.
  • onemoar@gmail.com - Saturday, August 6, 2016 - link

    here is my luxmark score
    overclocked EVGA GTX 1060SC
    http://www.luxmark.info/node/2919
  • Mustalainen - Saturday, August 6, 2016 - link

    I think i have commented once or twice on any article here but just had to do it again. The people in the comment section are just out right arrogant. You expect the reviewer to provide the detailed reviews on the same day a product is released? Can you guys cut the guys at Anandtech some slack? I bet they do their best in order to provide us with these reviews (which by the way are free). If you are not happy with the quality of the article, go somewhere else (but i bet you always come back here just because these guys do a great job). So what if the review is lagging with a month or two, if you are such an enthusiast go and buy the card/device yourself.
  • fanofanand - Saturday, August 6, 2016 - link

    They would receive their samples weeks ahead of time. How do you think so many day 1 reviews get posted?
  • Sushisamurai - Saturday, August 6, 2016 - link

    there is some truth to @fanofanand, but that's assuming anandtech also gets their review samples ahead of time as well - which you really can't prove. Those assumptions can be toxic.
  • Mustalainen - Sunday, August 7, 2016 - link

    So assuming this is not the authors full time job they should try to rush the review for the release date? And as stated in the other comment, you can only assume they get review samples ahead of time? There are so many day 1 reviews from other sources because when they have receive the review sample the review is about reading the technical details on the box (and test 5-10 different games and report the fps if its a gpu). Do you want Anandtech to become such an site?
  • yannigr2 - Saturday, August 6, 2016 - link

    This review makes GTX 1060 look much better than RX 480, compared to other reviews. Just an observation.
  • MarkieGcolor - Saturday, August 6, 2016 - link

    Agreed. AMD really needs to release their high end. I wonder if they are in cahoots with Nvidia. Why wouldn't they release a card that can beat titan x when they totally could? With this new process both companies are holding back
  • silverblue - Sunday, August 7, 2016 - link

    Vega isn't ready yet, that's why they've not done it.
  • Jman13 - Tuesday, August 9, 2016 - link

    That's because they ignored a lot of things where the 480 is better: such as DX12 on RotTR, where the 480 pulls essentially even with the 1060. The games list also ignores Doom, which is a HUGE win for the 480, and is included in most other review sites games suites. I understand the difficulty in altering and adding games to the suite, but I do think the discussion could have focused on the fact that there is a split between these two cards depending on which APIs are used. The 1060 is clearly the better card in DX 11 games. The 480 has generally performed very well in DX 12 games, being even in some and notably better in others. The only Vulkan game, Doom, shows a HUGE lead for the RX 480, but who knows how representative that is at this point.

    Long term, the 480 will probably be the faster card for newer games that use DX12, while the 1060 will be faster for most current and older games, as well as several newer games for the next year.
  • Raniz - Saturday, August 6, 2016 - link

    Good review, though I must say that calling it a review of a $249 MSRP card when neither of the cards actually reviewed has an MSRP of $249 is a bit weird.

    I think you should have at least one card that is actually priced at $249 in the review, even if the FE is supposed to be exactly the same as those cards.
  • Nephelai - Saturday, August 6, 2016 - link

    Never been a tin foil hat guy but I'm starting to believe nvidia is holding first borns on threat of including a GTX 980 TI or two in SLI in any review.
  • MarkieGcolor - Saturday, August 6, 2016 - link

    Yes! The GPU market is wacked
  • Sushisamurai - Saturday, August 6, 2016 - link

    I feel sorry for you Ryan. So much work out put in and yet there's still so many people that blast you and Anandtech as if you owe the vendors and readers "timely" reviews. Don't let it get to you guys - they'll still come and read just like I do, as your site offers something many don't.

    Anyways, back on topic, I feel the MRSP is a little BS In Canada, Newegg sells the products at ~$280 USD (1 SKU), with the Asus Strix @~$330 (other SKU's listed >$330). For $100 over the 480 in CAD (only reference boards available ATM) that 1060's perf/$ is too intense, almost priced at the next bracket (1070's only $50-$100 off the 1060 price, might as well get the 1070 then). Neat to see the 1060 #'s in action, too bad there's a limit on overvolting and TDP for over clocking.
  • IKeelU - Saturday, August 6, 2016 - link

    This review really needed some Doom vulkan to paint a more accurate picture of how these cards will perform in the future. I understand that Anandtech will expand on this review later on, but many of us are buying cards now (well, trying to at least).
  • Simplex - Sunday, August 7, 2016 - link

    I'd love to see more Vulkan based, but how realistic is it? How many games were announced to use Vulkan?
    How popular was Vulkan's predecessor (OpenGL) in the past?
  • Tech-Curious - Wednesday, August 10, 2016 - link

    Problem is that the nVidia optimizations for Doom Vulkan haven't even been attempted yet. You can find a bunch of reviews that show the 480 blowing the 1060 out of the water in Doom Vulkan, but we really don't know how representative those results are.

    Those results are very encouraging for the 480 though, just in general performance terms.
  • Tech-Curious - Wednesday, August 10, 2016 - link

    Correction, the quote I had in mind references async compute specifically. From Bethesda's Doom Vulkan FAQ:

    "Does DOOM support asynchronous compute when running on the Vulkan API?

    Asynchronous compute is a feature that provides additional performance gains on top of the baseline id Tech 6 Vulkan feature set.

    Currently asynchronous compute is only supported on AMD GPUs and requires DOOM Vulkan supported drivers to run. We are working with NVIDIA to enable asynchronous compute in Vulkan on NVIDIA GPUs. We hope to have an update soon."

    https://community.bethesda.net/thread/54585?tstart...
  • eddman - Saturday, August 6, 2016 - link

    Thanks for the review. I hope to see an HTPC review down the line, with a short 1060 or the upcoming 1050 (/Ti?).
  • jackbutler - Saturday, August 6, 2016 - link

    Could we please see a review of the new HEVC/H265 encoding performance of GTX1060 vs RX480?
  • Notmyusualid - Sunday, August 7, 2016 - link

    Seems amazingly mis-priced.

    The lowest I see a GTX1060 for, on Amazon.co.uk is 260 GBP (delivered). That is $340 USD.

    The pound didn't fall that much.
  • silverblue - Monday, August 8, 2016 - link

    True, but what taxes go on top of that $250? As a Brit myself, that's out of genuine curiosity.
  • thesavvymage - Monday, August 8, 2016 - link

    Taxes vary by location, in my state, Washington, sales tax is almost 10% (which i think might be the highest sales tax) so it'd land around 275. UK prices include taxes, US dont, so the price premium isnt as much as you'd initially think
  • mdw9604 - Sunday, August 7, 2016 - link

    Why aren't the 1080 performance numbers included in the Charts? This thing cost about half as much, would expect about half the performance. But b/c they were not included, can't cant really come to that conclusion.
  • Ryan Smith - Monday, August 8, 2016 - link

    While the charts can handle more results, we're trying to keep things readable. If you want a 1080 comparison, Bench would be perfect for this.
  • mdw9604 - Monday, August 8, 2016 - link

    Thanks for taking the time to reply, will check it out. Would think it would be useful to include the newest high-end nvida graphics cards for perspective.
  • medi03 - Monday, August 8, 2016 - link

    Thanks for the review, Ryan.

    I've noticed difference in power consumption results between your and other sites (let's take TPU for example).

    You are testing total power consumption, which, given PSU's 80%-ish efficiency, should give bigger differences between cards, than if testing power consumption of GPU alone (pcie/connectors).

    On your site, ref 480 consumes 37 watt more than 1060.
    Ref 1070 consumes 6 watt more than 480.

    On TPU site (PCIe, "average gaming"):
    1) 480 consumes 47 watt more, which, taking 80% PSU efficiency in account, is 58.7 watt more
    2) 1070 consumes a bit less than 480

    (review is for an AIB, but I'm comparing Ref vs FE numbers)
    https://www.techpowerup.com/reviews/Palit/GeForce_...

    Any thought about why that might be? Can chips really vary that much? Is power consumption that different between different games?
  • Ryan Smith - Monday, August 8, 2016 - link

    "Can chips really vary that much?"
    Yes, especially since these cards are at times TDP limited .Move the temperature up or down by 5F and you'll get slightly different results with blowers, for example. That said...

    "Is power consumption that different between different games?"
    Absolutely. There can be a massive difference in the CPU load from the simulation, and on the GPU side there's the balance between texturing/shading/ROPing. We can't test all games, so with Crysis 3 we try to pick a game that offers a reasonable middle case. But if someone else uses a different game they can get very different results.
  • Greeba77 - Monday, August 8, 2016 - link

    Great review as always, however I was hoping this would also take in the recent benchmarks that have come out comparing the 1060 to the RX480 using Vulkan on Doom, in which I gather the Nvida card completely tanked. And of course whether this should have any bearing on any decision to buy anyway... if the regular performance is as clear cut as it looks then it seems the 1060 is a pretty good mid range upgrade choice for me (I have an R9 270X at the moment so it's a few generations old and this or an RX480 will smash it.)
  • beck2050 - Monday, August 8, 2016 - link

    Great card for the money when prices settle down. Early adopters always pay more for popular tech.
  • Younanomous - Monday, August 8, 2016 - link

    So would it be a good investment to go for the 1070 for 1080p if I plan t keep the card for 3+ years? I'm always told that the X70's are overill for 1080p.
  • JamesAnthony - Monday, August 8, 2016 - link

    Thanks for another Excellent review.
    The review shows the GTX 1060 is an excellent value/performance card.
    While there is a bunch of arguing back and forth I think it's fairly clear to say that:

    a. There is a huge installed base of people with monitors running 1920x1080

    b. The GTX1060 offers excellent performance from a price / performance standpoint

    c. For most intents and purposes the GTX 1060 and RX 480 8gb have similar performance under most applications and give or take a bit are similar in price & the prices will drift down a bit as supply finally fully catches up with demand. (I was able to land 2 of the Overclocked Zotac ones at $275 each on launch day).

    d. If you have a lot of brand loyalty (in my case Nvidia drivers just work better for me), you'll pick based on your preference, and then people who truly don't care (I think there are less of those) can pick based on specific things they want, but neither is a bad choice unless you have to have FP64 then it's AMD only.

    The RX 460 is going to be quite interesting from the extreme cheap budget / power capped viewpoint if it comes in around the $120 range & has a 75w power draw that doesn't need a power connector.

    I'd love to see a GTX 1050 that was PCIe power only and could go standard single slot or low profile single / dual slot to compete. (with it being able to go single slot, low profile as the ultimate idea).
  • loop - Monday, August 8, 2016 - link

    buy rx 480 or gtx 1060?
  • elessar25 - Monday, August 8, 2016 - link

    I read on Eurogamer that AMD's GPUs outperform NVIDIA on "close to metal" APIs like DX12. Although this review proofs without a doubt that the GTX 1060 is more powerful overall than the RX 480, I'm curious if this will hold true going forward? For someone who wants to future-proof their system, which is the better GPU? Disclaimer: I'm not a fanboy and I currently run a GTX 670.
  • Greeba77 - Tuesday, August 9, 2016 - link

    This is pretty much what I was getting at in my above comment, curious to know...
  • Tech-Curious - Wednesday, August 10, 2016 - link

    We don't know, but it seems reasonable to guess, based on recent history, that:

    1.) AMD's relative performance will likely increase, whereas nVidia's will probably decrease with time, as a result of driver optimizations for the former and the lack thereof for the latter. Keep in mind that this isn't necessarily an indictment of nVidia or a compliment to AMD; it could be interpreted as nVidia's optimizing their drivers better at the outset, leaving them less headroom to improve. But for whatever reason, past-gen nVidia cards seem to fall back relative to their competition later on.

    2.) AMD will tend to gain more from DX 12. Whether "gaining more" means that any particular AMD card will outperform its nVidia counterpart is a whole 'nother issue.
  • Hrel - Tuesday, August 9, 2016 - link

    Wow, based on these numbers AMD needs to drop their prices at least $40 to even be viable, let's not even talk about competitive.

    Fuck, so now we officially have a monopoly in the CPU and GPU space.
  • Younanomous - Wednesday, August 10, 2016 - link

    It's not a monopoly if you have another choice, even if that other choice isn't as good in your eyes.
  • Casecutter - Wednesday, August 10, 2016 - link

    Would've been nice to see where a $249 unit (with lower end dual fans) slots into this line up. This Asus doesn't really impress for $315 (working a $15 rebate right today).
  • thunderwave_2 - Wednesday, August 10, 2016 - link

    For the upcoming RX 480 review, could you post power, temps and noise results for the Compatibility mode? (they perform almost identically, so performance results might be redundant)
  • Leozn01 - Wednesday, August 10, 2016 - link

    Why do you guys no longer include Sony Vegas Pro in your GPU reviews?
  • Tech-Curious - Wednesday, August 10, 2016 - link

    I've been watching the RX 480 and GTX 1060 on Newegg since about two days after the former's launch. In that time, I have seen the reference 8gb 480 flash in and out of stock 2-3 times.

    The only 480 that was consistently available was priced waaay over the MSRP (@ $300+, the one I can find right now is at $400). 4GB models, as far as I can tell, have been nonexistent. Most importantly for me, there has been no hint of an AiB-partner board available at a decent price.

    By contrast, I've seen 1060s flash in and out of stock several times in the comparatively shorter period since the 1060 launch, many of them in the $250-260 range.

    The kicker was when the 470 launched and all of a sudden there were a small army of overpriced third-party 470s occupying the market segment that 480's MSRP was supposed to cover.

    So, reluctantly, I snapped up a $250 1060 to replace my aging 7850. I really wanted to buy an AMD card; I had been waiting for Polaris to launch for months -- but when you combine the 480's higher power consumption, its bad reference cooler, the initial PCI-power-delivery controversy, and the lack of stock/options for what has to be at least a month now, this is what happens.

    Ryan's correct; neither company's exactly in a great spot with stock, but from a cheap seats it sure seems that nVidia executed better than AMD in the short term. Pity.
  • m16 - Sunday, August 14, 2016 - link

    I personally love blower cards. They're the best for SLI in smaller cases, but here the only good thing about them is being able to put them in small cases to begin with because there's no SLI connector.

    Bummer, but I bet the cards are still flying off the shelves.
  • Gastec - Tuesday, August 16, 2016 - link

    Are you joking me? A 215% increrase in performance over GTX 960 (in Rise of the Planet of the Tomb Raider Apes) !!! Something is fishy, I can't see the performance difference in the specs. A 50-55% increase OK,but more...smelly fishy fish.
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