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  • Bulat Ziganshin - Monday, July 16, 2018 - link

    TLDR:
    Why you left Tesla? - Tired of pedophiles
    What you can say about your work at Intel? - Nothing
  • Samus - Monday, July 16, 2018 - link

    Why you trolling? Neither of those statements are remotely accurate, and lacking of any humor to ever be considered comical or sarcastic.
  • Cellar Door - Monday, July 16, 2018 - link

    I think it is time for even basic moderation of the comments on this site.
  • Alexvrb - Tuesday, July 17, 2018 - link

    I'm not sure what you'd "moderate" him for in the first place. He's a tool, for sure. But having a rule against being a tool is pretty broad.
  • 0ldman79 - Tuesday, July 17, 2018 - link

    A crescent wrench without the adjustment part is pretty useless.

    Maybe the moderation could be based on useful vs useless tools.
  • Alexvrb - Tuesday, July 17, 2018 - link

    I'd rather deal with the occasional fool than put up with the even more foolish de facto censorship. I know freedom of speech isn't as popular as it used to be, and many countries don't even have it, but you don't truly miss something until it's gone.

    I mean seriously you're not arguing for moderation of foul language or threats. You're saying "I don't like what this guy says so clearly we need Big Daddy to step in." Yeah that's always such a great idea.
  • 0ldman79 - Tuesday, July 17, 2018 - link

    Not really, maybe I missed some scandal about a pedo at Tesla.

    I don't like baseless accusations, especially about stuff like that.

    I can deal with dissenting opinions and discussion, but obvious troll is just an obvious troll. I moderate a few groups, some get a bit heated, as long as everyone keeps it clean it generally stays, but trolling is just wiped clear from the board. It serves zero purpose.
  • close - Wednesday, July 18, 2018 - link

    So you'd delete a comment that's at least half right because it smells like trolling? He basically said nothing about Intel (nor could he be expected to), and the Tesla comment is probably related to Musk's recent tweet baselessly accusing a rescue diver of being a pedo (although... he who smelt it dealt it?).

    Moderators in general usually already have a warped sense of why they're there, and somehow start assuming it's because their opinion matters more. Even here on AT users just dropped off the radar for asking AT staff perfectly valid questions. So asking moderators to moderate trolling is no different than asking you. And you seem to be more than happy to delete stuff you don't agree with. So yeah... "brilliant".
  • Alexvrb - Thursday, July 19, 2018 - link

    Now to be fair, 0ldman79 is a 13th level Double Ordained Minister of Truth and Trolling so... you pretty much just have to accept that his opinion is gospel. If a comment is trolling, snarky, or just plain fishy, delete it - if it's a second offense, ban the user and burn down their residence.
  • evernessince - Tuesday, July 24, 2018 - link

    Isn't this the same approach facebook and twitter takes only to be overrun with foreign state bot farms and 3rd party influences?

    Free Speech and moderation can co-exist. Free Speech stops at the point you start alienating other's rights. People don't deserve to have fake news spread about them that can end their career.
  • NICOXIS - Wednesday, July 18, 2018 - link

    What we need is a proper commenting system with rating, sorting and collapsing capabilities
  • Alexvrb - Thursday, July 19, 2018 - link

    I'd give you a thumbs up but... you know.
  • close - Friday, July 20, 2018 - link

    @NICOXIS, don't hold your breath. It will probably get worse during the next redesign. Just like until now. Even the system used 10 years ago here on AT was more useful. Then it it got a downgrade in 2010, and a final punch in the crotch in the 2013 redesign that made it impossible to tell who replied to whom.

    It's ironic that a tech outlet has one of the most antiquated and least usable websites.
  • GreenReaper - Sunday, July 22, 2018 - link

    I have one of those used on Flayrah, if AnandTech's comments is based on Drupal, which I think it might be judging by some past things. Not sure the community is ready for the impact, though.
  • mode_13h - Tuesday, July 17, 2018 - link

    I think the Tesla comment is a reference to what Elon Musk recently tweeted.

    The Intel comment is kind of on point, considering how he had to dance so much of what we *really* want to know.
  • Bulat Ziganshin - Wednesday, July 18, 2018 - link

    No, I'm not trolling. It's what i get known from this long interview. If you got better answers to these questions from the interview, please share them with me.
  • NikosD - Wednesday, July 18, 2018 - link

    Desperate times for Intel, that's for sure.

    Jim Keller had never had to give interviews like that before, working for AMD for example.

    As he has already said in this interview, he is not a PR kind of guy.

    Now regarding this interview and what he really said, it's simple.

    Intel is firing/hiring people in a very fast cadence and they worry a lot about their future as they have no plan.
    It's a little chaos inside as Jim describes it, a very stressed place to work.

    For the first time in their history, they missed the advantage of manufacturing process and they hired Jim to solve the 10nm problem by saying his opinions that he couldn't share with us in this interview.

    He has spent 6 weeks talking and knowing people but his main concern is Intel's main concern.
    That is...
    How and when are we going to fix that f@ing 10nm process ?

    Time is running...Tic tac...Tic tac
  • Bulat Ziganshin - Wednesday, July 18, 2018 - link

    TSMC/Samsung?GF had the same problems with 20 nm,and Intel had problems with 14 nm. It's usual stuff, just follow Anandtech news for a few years.
  • fteoath64 - Saturday, July 21, 2018 - link

    Also the 7nm as well ?. If so, Jim will have it nailed by year end. Would not be that late but Intel need a new architecture refresh!. Also a iGpu refresh. Both Jim and Raja the right sort of people to do it. It is a matter of time. Which Intel has lots of compared to their competitors.....even with server chip market eroding .
  • wut - Monday, July 23, 2018 - link

    You're one of those "woe is me" people Jim talked about in his interview.

    People who lack perspective.
  • eva02langley - Monday, July 16, 2018 - link

    I am going to read the story later, but the picture with the Intel team seems to be a PR stunt, like everything is fantastic at Intel right now... right...
  • superunknown98 - Monday, July 16, 2018 - link

    PR Stunt? People can't smile in a picture because a project at a gigantic company is taking longer than they thought it would? Would you like them to put on their sad faces?
  • CajunArson - Monday, July 16, 2018 - link

    I'm sure you said the exact same thing when Lisa Su sat on stage grinning at the Fury Launch while an underling publicly guaranteed that the Fury was an "overclocker's dream".
  • eva02langley - Monday, July 16, 2018 - link

    After reading the interview, it is hard to not see any kind of blue promotion. And yeah, what I get out of it is "everything is incredible at Intel".

    Funny that my initial impression is exactly what transpired out of it.
  • CajunArson - Monday, July 16, 2018 - link

    Yes, because when Anandtech interviewed Lisa Su you were jumping all over it and spreading FUD because Lisa Su didn't publicly crap all over AMD's server and graphics lineup and go into a long diatribe about how its ARM server project basically failed and never saw the light of day.

    Oh wait, no you didn't.
  • close - Wednesday, July 18, 2018 - link

    His point is that "But but but what about that other guy who did that other thing?".

    It's what people do when they have no argument defending what they like and the only handy thing to do is try to divert attention. It's called whataboutism and it's used when you're holding a pair of deuces.
  • eva02langley - Wednesday, July 18, 2018 - link

    My point is that it was a stunt show... didn't happen with Intel in the past... especially with their 28 cores CPU demo... and tech sites entirely reported the right info... even anandtech, right?

    Same old Intel tactics, trying to dry out their competition. Before it was with anti-trust tactics, and now is by sucking the talent of the industry since they know they are in a slope.

    Super interesting interview, but that was a promotion of Intel, not really a Jim Keller interview.
  • eva02langley - Wednesday, July 18, 2018 - link

    Phhh, you need to be blind to not see a shift and Intel desperation here. They are hiring a huge amount of talent, most of them AMD, to cut AMD momentum. I don't site WCCF usually, but without taking the spin on their article about it, the facts stand.

    Intel hiring Jim Keller is a shout at desperation. By the way, isn't Intel CEO resigned... over nebulous matters?

    Cmon, and you think Intel is not promoting this new WORKFORCE propaganda? With the amount of control this interview was having with Keller questions, it is obvious this was propaganda everytime that the word "WE" was in context.

    End of the line, Intel has a lot of work to do. Their node process is not an argument anymore. If you don't see the problem there, I can tell you that wallstreet see it really well.

    And I am the one that is blind... "sarcasm"
  • wut - Monday, July 23, 2018 - link

    Please name the "huge amount of talent out of AMD". Raja was, but Jim was out of Tesla.
  • 0ldman79 - Tuesday, July 17, 2018 - link

    Not sure I see your point.

    Every company worth it's salt has made excellent products and they've all made missteps. AMD is recovering from a misstep with Ryzen and Intel is probably going to do something interesting in about 5 years, if not sooner.

    Just because the chosen design of a CPU and the current direction of the company is a little fuzzy (not like there's anything inherently wrong with the Core ix series as it is) doesn't mean it's not a damned interesting place to work.

    Most of this told me exactly what I wanted to know, Keller is like I am, give him a goal and set the boundaries (fuel/power consumption vs performance, price vs performance vs size) and he figures out how to make it happen. That's when the work gets fun for me. One of my favorite projects wasn't a monster server, it was a machine I had to build that could handle vibrations of a small airplane and power by a cigarette lighter adapter (had to be modular and removable vs hardwiring) while taking aerial photos over ethernet @ around 300-500Mbps at a power window of about 25 watts back in 07.

    Keller is excited about his new job and it's challenges, that's my take away from it.
  • FullmetalTitan - Wednesday, July 18, 2018 - link

    We are on the 4th generation of 14nm Core parts because Intel has stuck to their original 10nm design, now 2+ years late, for so long that all of the foundries have a tech node advantage going into 2019. This is more than a misstep, Intel is in a nosedive and if they can't figure out their management issue and realign their roadmap with reality, they are going to keep slipping.
    They dropped from #1 in production volume last year, and nothing in the last 6 months say they are going to stop the bleeding at just that.
  • Bulat Ziganshin - Wednesday, July 18, 2018 - link

    After 20 years of technical leadership, they finally produce CPUs at the same node as AMD, but with far more mature process, so they should have much better yields. That's all. We expect 7 nm Zen next year, but whio knows what Intel process will be at those time? And given low yields of new processes (what Intel now have with 10 nm), can we be sure that AMD will really get better production prices?

    What we have now is that Intel already started 10 nm production, but don't use it for mass products due to low yields. TSMC started 10 nm, but used it only for mobile CPUs, probably for the same reason. TSMC is close to starting 7 nm, but when they will have high enough yields to produce AMD CPUs?
  • Shorty_ - Thursday, June 27, 2019 - link

    how's this working out for you?
  • wut - Monday, July 23, 2018 - link

    ...and what it all to you?

    If you think AMD's chips to be superior just buy AMD. Duh.

    What's your skin in this game?
  • mode_13h - Monday, July 23, 2018 - link

    Eh, what's wrong with being fans of the horse race? The excitement, drama, and suspense can be hard to resist.
  • Bulat Ziganshin - Wednesday, July 18, 2018 - link

    >Keller is excited about his new job and it's challenges, that's my take away from it.

    did you see any interview where anyone said opposite? This "takeaway" carries exactly 0 bits of information.
  • wut - Monday, July 23, 2018 - link

    So where in the interview did you get the "everything is fantastic"?

    ...Oh wait, you didn't read the interview.
  • mode_13h - Monday, July 23, 2018 - link

    Well, there was a notable "honeymoon period" feel to his comments about what it's like to work at Intel.
  • wumpus - Monday, July 16, 2018 - link

    Well, that seemed like a waste of an opportunity. Intel and AMD wouldn't let him talk about Zen. Intel wouldn't let him talk about anything he is doing.

    Maybe he could have had some interesting things to say about the original Athlon, or perhaps the 21164 and 21264 (older readers are likely to remember and revere these chips). All we are left are the platitudes allowed by NDA (and at Intel, they own *everything* you know while employed by them. I don't think anyone has managed to get the contract thrown out by court).

    The weird parts are the bits about "other guys have hiccups" while Intel is suffering its biggest process problems ever: expect them to be forced to compete head to head with AMD with zero process advantage next year. Also the bit about "log linear" has been steadily breaking down since 2000. Computers might not be stopping, but photolithographed silicon is, and photolithgraphed silicon is the reason that the revolution has lasted 50+ years. Maybe he is suggesting that he accepts that one guy can't do much in Intel's bureaucracy (the Isreal design house might be an exception) and that he's just building a retirement fund and Intel is making sure he doesn't design an ARM competitor.

    Or I'm trying to read something out of intentionally zero-information noise. Probably that.
  • bji - Monday, July 16, 2018 - link

    Well he didn't say "other guys have hiccups", he said "somebody has a hiccup", which in this context clearly means that he's talking about Intel, especially given the sentences which follow that.
  • name99 - Monday, July 16, 2018 - link

    Go to agree. Even if he can't give details, would have been nice to ask about his work at Apple.
    How does Johny Srouji compare to other heads of hardware he's worked with? How far in advance does Apple CPU planning extend? How large are their teams compared to Intel or AMD? How do their tools (simulators, power modeling, thermal modeling, etc) compare? Do they have a particular philosophy about how to weigh power vs performance, or how to push frequency vs pushing micro-architecture? Are they more or less daring in terms of trying new ideas? ...

    So many things that could be asked that are interesting, but don't break NDA.
  • Alexvrb - Tuesday, July 17, 2018 - link

    Yeah I was a smidge disappointed in the lack of discussion about classic designs. This was really just an interview with INTEL's Jim Keller.

    I definitely had the thought that they were mostly just trying to keep him from taking an interesting offer from an ARM firm again. Intel has a massive stack of products to keep him busy so it's good for him as well.
  • wut - Monday, July 23, 2018 - link

    ...because the questions themselves are for "intel's Jim".

    If you want to point fingers and complain, point them at the interviewer. Complain that the questions should have involved classic designs instead of keep asking "so you're there, whacha gonna do" type of questions
  • fteoath64 - Saturday, July 21, 2018 - link

    I think you nailed it. Intel just wanted to ensure he is busy with mandane staff so he will not create more competition for Intel....
  • HStewart - Monday, July 16, 2018 - link

    "You bet! In the first 2 weeks we sat down and walked through the metal stack for Intel's 14, 10 and 7nm "

    That is first I heard of Intel's 7nm - I have heard that Intel 10nm is closer others 7nm once releases.

    I thought Jim was very clever about not giving too much away especially concerning Raju. A high up person in a huge company like Intel needs to be.
  • tipoo - Monday, July 16, 2018 - link

    Yes, TSMC 7nm is about similar to Intel 10nm in density. Though naming aside, them launching similar densities this close in time does point to Intels process lead evaporating, TSMC 7nm is sounding like it's in better shape to ship en masse.
  • Sivar - Monday, July 16, 2018 - link

    I wonder if their 7nm process will use something other than silicon as discussed a few years ago.
    https://wccftech.com/intel-abandoning-silicon-7nm/

    Considering the dearth of discussion since, it seems likely that they plan to use silicon, that they are having trouble finding a suitable material, or that they are doing an extra good job of keeping their future plans under wraps.
  • HStewart - Monday, July 16, 2018 - link

    Even though you link comes from wccftech which reliability in stories and especially in its comment section are very questionable, that would be logical choice for Intel. my guess for competitors they will call their process 5nm or 3nm just so they claim a lower number.

    I don't believe much in nm rating, what makes it happen is more reliable. Intel's 10nm is taking longer to release because it much more dense that other process. To what extent is probably up to speculation until it release.
  • FullmetalTitan - Wednesday, July 18, 2018 - link

    It's taking longer to release because they set some design parameters upfront and refused to budge on them as problem after problem piled up. Samsung and TSMC are ramping production for 7nm with an equivalent transistor density to what Intel shared for 10nm, this is far beyond just "it's really hard guys", Intel made some major mistakes very high up and refused to eat the costs of that mistake. They went all in on 10nm AS DESIGNED, instead of folding the hand and moving on.
  • tipoo - Monday, July 16, 2018 - link

    Naw, still silicon on current roadmaps. No one is scaling up anything post-silicon yet, maybe some time beyond 3nm.
  • edzieba - Sunday, July 22, 2018 - link

    "No one is scaling up anything post-silicon yet"

    Intel (and Micron) are fabbing Chalcogenide dies today over in Utah. All signs point to 3D Xpoint being the fruit of the developments at Ovonics, which extended far beyond just memory cells. I don't think we'll see a sudden "we Chalcogenide now" switch for a monolithic die, but I do think we'll see sections fabbed on that process and linked using EMIB. In-memory-processing would also be an interesting aspect top alleviate some memory bandwidth bottlenecks.
  • mode_13h - Sunday, July 22, 2018 - link

    HBM is a more general way of alleviating memory bottlenecks and improving power efficiency.

    In-memory processing architectures are more applicable to things like AI.
  • peevee - Monday, July 16, 2018 - link

    "Materials" in chips are WAY more than just Si. The author of the original piece just speculates based on one word on the slide.
  • 0ldman79 - Tuesday, July 17, 2018 - link

    I find it funny how Intel's 10nm is often mentioned as being pretty comparable to other foundry's 7nm, however the other foundries *have* working 7nm and Intel is struggling with 10nm.

    Not picking sides here, but comparing a barely functional process to a working process and talking about how the barely functional process is superior somehow... ???
  • mode_13h - Wednesday, July 18, 2018 - link

    Maybe the fact that they had so much trouble with it is due to being more ambitious?

    Semiconductor fabrication is probably one of the most complex and temperamental manufacturing processes ever, in human history. Even if that's somehow an overstatement, I think it's safe to say it defies facile analysis.
  • Bulat Ziganshin - Wednesday, July 18, 2018 - link

    Intel has working 10 nm which is used to produce Canon Lake chips for notebooks. TSMC has working 10 nm used for SD845. Both don't produce on 7 nm anything selling to home customers. Both don't use their 10 nm for mass production of mass-market CPUs which is probably due to low yields. Aside of speculations how their 10 nm can be compared, it looks like they are on par ATM.
  • mczak - Monday, July 16, 2018 - link

    This is certainly not the first time intel mentioned 7nm.
    That was half and a year ago at least, when they mentioned to build fab 42 for it.
    https://www.anandtech.com/show/11112/intel-to-equi...
    And in any case, it's kinda obvious they are working on it (even if their 10nm node, which is comparable to others 7nm, isn't quite working yet and will go through some revisions). Although I have no idea how it compares to other foundries (5nm) technologies, I don't think there has been published much (for none of the companies).
  • SkyBill40 - Monday, July 16, 2018 - link

    Pretty sure F42 is set to go or is super close. I live right up the road from the Intel complex.
  • iwod - Monday, July 16, 2018 - link

    Well it really isn't news because Intel has been investing in 7nm for a long time, and we know it will be a full EUV node, both front end and back end.
  • name99 - Monday, July 16, 2018 - link

    The SMART thing for Intel to do would be to declare victory and move on.

    - Use EUV for their existing 10nm line. (Sure, EUV has lower volumes. Which, given that the actually useful 10nm volumes right now are ZERO, seems like a strange problem to get hung up on.)
    - Call the the 10nm EUV line 7nm, numbering is in sync with the foundries, life goes on.

    Yes this will mean Intel PR can't trot out their annual "our 10nm density can beat up their 7nm density" bullshit parade, but I'd like to think that ultimately engineering counts as more important than PR in the hierarchy of Intel values.
    Invent some other nonsense ("we are first shipping volume EUV" or whatever) you can boast about, but stop obsessing over PR optics and the existing roadmap and think outside the box.

    At least this way Intel can STFU about telling us how ICL will be the greatest chip in the history of the universe, going to ship any year now; and ACTUALLY DELIVER the damn thing.
  • porcupineLTD - Monday, July 16, 2018 - link

    From my understanding the equipment necessary for EUV is manufactured slowly and at very low capacity and you need to book orders over a year in advance, apparently GloFlo and Samsung are first on the booking list and they expect to have volume production ready in late 2019. Even if Intel has mastered EUV (witch seems unlikely considering they are having problems with DUV in witch they have decades of experience) they could not go into volume production since they cant procure the equipment they need.
  • name99 - Tuesday, July 17, 2018 - link

    Which part of
    "Use EUV for their existing 10nm line. (Sure, EUV has lower volumes. Which, given that the actually useful 10nm volumes right now are ZERO, seems like a strange problem to get hung up on.)"
    did you not understand?
  • mode_13h - Wednesday, July 18, 2018 - link

    Uh, which part of "cant procure the equipment they need" don't you understand?

    I'm not saying @porcupineLTD is right, but your rebuttal isn't even responding to their point.
  • name99 - Wednesday, July 18, 2018 - link

    Q: Does Intel own ANY EUV equipment?
    A: yes
    Q: Is ANY number of chips made with that EUV equipment more than zero?
    A: yes

    Which part of this do you not understand? Let's say a single ASML machine can create 150 wafers an hour (this numbers varies depending on details, but is kinda the right ballpark).
    OK, so you ran that 24/7 (at 50% downtime) and you can process 50,000 wafers per month.
    OK, now there are issues of how many passes does each wafer need through EUV, etc, but the end result is not negligible, it's a reasonable fraction of the output of a fab.

    It's certainly enough to ship premier versions of IceLake, priced to constrain demand until you get a few more EUV machines on line. But you see commercial advantage in sitting around doing nothing, learning nothing about real-world EUV, and continuing to insist that Cannon Lake is too a real product?
  • mode_13h - Thursday, July 19, 2018 - link

    You act like that was obvious and common knowledge, but it obviously wasn't. You attack others for your own failure to make your case.
  • 0ldman79 - Tuesday, July 17, 2018 - link

    Very true.

    Right now Intel's 10nm process is about as useful as the carburetor from the late 70s that could get 100mpg... that kind of thing is awesome, but where is it? I've seen as many reputable reports of 100mpg carbs as I have working 10nm Intel CPUs.
  • kn00tcn - Monday, July 16, 2018 - link

    just dont understand why you keep writing 'raju' for months & months, it's been written in article titles, article contents, people you've replied to, etc... can only think of max 1-2 other people that did it even though that's a vague memory

    is it stuck in some auto correct dictionary?
  • kn00tcn - Monday, July 16, 2018 - link

    "it's been written" = *the real name of 'raja' has been in sight
  • arashi - Monday, July 16, 2018 - link

    I'm convinced that HStewart is a Markov Chain.
  • Bulat Ziganshin - Wednesday, July 18, 2018 - link

    Intel is ALREADY producing mobile CPUs with 10 nm, do you really expect that they don't started 7 nm DEVELOPMENT long before that?

    >Jim was very clever about not giving too much away

    and it's why these interviews are meaningless. People just not going to say anything real, it's pure PR action with all those "I'm excited" stuff.
  • wut - Monday, July 23, 2018 - link

    Good grief............

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/7_nanometer
  • PeachNCream - Monday, July 16, 2018 - link

    Nice interview Ian! I've been a bit curious about Jim Keller just because of the role he's played at AMD and the influence he's had on the industry though his work. It's a pity he couldn't be more forthcoming about some of what's going on at Intel, but understandable given the competitive nature of the industry.
  • mode_13h - Wednesday, July 18, 2018 - link

    What seems most impressive is his success not only as an engineer, but also a manager and leader. It's extremely rare to find all those abilities in one person.

    Of course, we're only hearing this from *him*, but I guess his track record lends credence to his testimony. Though, I guess we can't exactly call him humble.
  • tipoo - Monday, July 16, 2018 - link

    Intel really assembled the avengers here, eh. Keller is a legend. It looks like they're a bit spooked and damned serious for it, so the fruits of that will be exciting to see.
  • oddity1234 - Monday, July 16, 2018 - link

    The way Keller managed to say absolutely nothing with the most words possible seems to directly contradict his claim that he's "not exactly a PR person".
  • jtd871 - Monday, July 16, 2018 - link

    Ian, friendly advice: Schedule a professional PR head shot. Arrange one for all the senior editorial staff while you're at it.
  • Ian Cutress - Monday, July 16, 2018 - link

    We're all in different places around the world. Mine was taken at my wedding, what's wrong with that? :)
  • HStewart - Monday, July 16, 2018 - link

    We don't need a PR shot - what is important is that Ian got an interview - I expect that is no small feat.
  • zodiacfml - Monday, July 16, 2018 - link

    LOL. Everything is vague. Nothing to see here.
  • SkyBill40 - Monday, July 16, 2018 - link

    Of course it's going to be vague and largely ambiguous. That's what happens when you're held to strict NDAs by companies who have shared trade secrets with you. Why would you have expected any different?
  • mode_13h - Wednesday, July 18, 2018 - link

    Yeah, but they surely could've plumbed deep enough into the depths of his past for *something* of substance to discuss. Like stuff from his first stint at AMD.
  • iwod - Monday, July 16, 2018 - link

    I think he is extremely good at PR and properly talented for politician as well, the way he manage to scribble lots of words without saying a thing.

    I still don't think we will continue the log improvement, not because of the technology, but the cost structure. Benedict Evans pointed out this in 2016, which i cant really argue against, how do we ship more unit when 7B people on the planet, 5B has mobile phone, 3.5B has Smartphone, there is likely nothing next the 10 - 20 years that has magnitude larger scale then Mobile.
  • Ian Cutress - Monday, July 16, 2018 - link

    To clarify, this was an interview over the phone. He didn't have my questions beforehand.
  • CajunArson - Monday, July 16, 2018 - link

    Cutress Says: "IC: Have you had time to examine Intel's competitors for the products you are interested in?"

    What Keller really wanted to say but couldn't because CorporateSpeak: "I designed RyZen Beyotch! You think so?!?!?"
  • 0ldman79 - Tuesday, July 17, 2018 - link

    Hahahahaha!
  • peevee - Monday, July 16, 2018 - link

    "Certain details of processor design today look the same to me as 25 years ago"

    Or 60 years ago. While the scale is totally different, and the old Von Neumann does not work well for 2 decades (hence various DSPs, GPUs and other accelerators which work orders of magnitude better but still not as good as possible).
  • peevee - Monday, July 16, 2018 - link

    "Like again, Ray Kurzweil has a graphic of computer performance I think from 1870 to today which is log linear. So when some people ask me where I think the future is going – well I think it's been a log linear scale for 100 years, now it is 104 years, "

    That is not quite true though. For the last 7 years at least, performance per $ in Intel products barely crawls. And for a last few, in ARM-based designs, and in GPUs, etc. It is over. At least for a while.
    2 ways from here:
    1) Different manufacturing technology (not Si). Unlikely to happen soon, as any such thing need to be progressed for decades before it reaches Si perf/$, and unlike with Si, there is no financing for it all the while it is behind Si.
    2) Different computing architecture. Well, everybody is now using something different than those useless CPUs when performance is really needed, but every time it is something very specialized. New general computing architecture is needed, but Intel LIVES off x86 so they would fight such a thing tooth and nail, unless they actually get a visionary somewhere up high.
    2)
  • name99 - Monday, July 16, 2018 - link

    "And for a last few, in ARM-based designs, and in GPUs, etc. It is over. "
    Hmm. There's this company called Apple that might want to disagree with you...
  • grrrgrrr - Monday, July 16, 2018 - link

    Now compute has to a large extent shifted to GPUs. Next month we'll get TR2990x. Tomorrow compute will shift to AI processors which are already 10x faster/more energy efficient than GPUs
  • wow&wow - Monday, July 16, 2018 - link

    "The culture is very interesting about how people think about their work and go about it. My plan like I said is to get to know people and talk to everybody and see what's really going on and how I can be of service to that. So far, it has been great actually."

    The culture is very interesting about how people think about a bug and an INTENDED feature and go about saying a no-brainer, obvious bug is the INTENDED design (the INTENDED bug or feature?). My plan like I said is to get to know people and talk to everybody and see what's really going on and why they are confused by bugs and features and how I can lighten them up. So far, it has not much success actually. :-D
  • jcc5169 - Monday, July 16, 2018 - link

    Anandtech is definitely an Intel Fanboy operation, no doubt about it now
  • Ian Cutress - Tuesday, July 17, 2018 - link

    The other week I was being called an AMD shill. Can someone straighten this out once and for all? I mean, we get interviews (plural) with AMD's CEO. Apparently I was shilling hard there.

    Or, you consider the fact that we were offered an interview and we took it.
  • mkaibear - Tuesday, July 17, 2018 - link

    When you're getting abuse from both sides that probably means you're sat in the right place ;)
  • eva02langley - Tuesday, July 17, 2018 - link

    Ian, don't waste your time replying to this kind of comments. In the end, you will only be the one to look bad. There is no point of commenting on this. Save yourself the boredom to do so and take it easy. Internet is full of people knowing better than the others.
  • beginner99 - Tuesday, July 17, 2018 - link

    Or there was an agreement in place to what he is allowed to ask, you know like nicely not mentioning meltdown and what intel can and will do about it without crippling performance.
  • mode_13h - Wednesday, July 18, 2018 - link

    You know, if Ian is reading & replying to these comments, maybe we could *ask* him to disclose the terms of their interview!
  • Ian Cutress - Wednesday, July 18, 2018 - link

    What would you want be to ask about Spectre/Meltdown that we don't already know? They've soft patched what they can for what is out, and hardware patches are coming. All I would get is a boiler plate answer in line with what's already been announced about a project that he hasn't worked on. It would be a waste of a question.
  • wow&wow - Wednesday, July 18, 2018 - link

    "What would you want be to ask about Spectre/Meltdown that we don't already know?"

    How about asking Jim Keller:

    Is Intel's not following the well defined privilege levels and uniquely requiring OS kernel relocation a design bug or feature (according to Intel's ex-CEO it's the INTENDED design, no bug)?
  • mode_13h - Thursday, July 19, 2018 - link

    FWIW, I'm not on board with asking questions that will obviously get a PR-friendly non-answer, possibly burning bridges with Intel/Jim, in the process.

    The only thing I wish Ian had done differently is tried to ask some high-level details about design challenges or process involved in some project far enough in Jim's past that he could actually talk about it.
  • wow&wow - Thursday, July 19, 2018 - link

    If afraid of burning bridges by trying asking a technical person about a technical issue, what will be the point of interviewing, getting meaningless answers for meaningless questions or geeting the expected answers for the expected-to-be-aked questions?
  • mode_13h - Thursday, July 19, 2018 - link

    Look, we agree that the interview could and ideally would have had more substance. But it's not like this guy is an elected official. He doesn't owe anything and is obviously not going to say anything that would embarrass his employer. So, what's to be *gained* by asking such a question? I just see a lot of potential downside with no real upside.
  • mode_13h - Thursday, July 19, 2018 - link

    I was only responding to the supposition that your interview was under some explicit constraints. Is that true? If so, can you tell us (or at least summarize) the guidelines you were given? I'm just curious.

    Thanks.
  • wow&wow - Tuesday, July 17, 2018 - link

    Not really, it doesn't delete my facts-based comments that are negative to Intel.

    ExtremeTech is SURELY an "Intel inside" operation; it has been deleting my EVERY facts-based comment that has ANY negative to Intel.
  • mazz7 - Monday, July 16, 2018 - link

    Interesting, Intel gather the Rock star in the Business, but it will ripe in another 2+ years, now AMD is reaping that sweet market in 2 years estimation thanks to Jim Keller :)
  • Jennifer150 - Tuesday, July 17, 2018 - link


    hi

  • milkod2001 - Tuesday, July 17, 2018 - link

    Keller helped AMD to RISEN from dead, now working for Intel he will do the very opposite. Still not sure what is Raja doing there.
  • eva02langley - Tuesday, July 17, 2018 - link

    My point since the beginning, that photo seems to be a marketing propaganda trying to make people believes that everything is fine at Intel now... the only thing I see is Intel employing major key players (from AMD i.e.) to try to disrupt the competition.

    Basically, it was like when Hollywood hired George A. Romero just to muzzle him and preventing him to disrupt things as they knew.
  • Maxiking - Tuesday, July 17, 2018 - link

    Jim Keller left AMD 3 years ago, then worked for Tesla.

    Raja left AMD because of their lack of money, vision and their lies.

    Don't worry, If I were hit by the Vega propaganda like you, I would be seeing the devil everywhere too. Just give it the time.
  • mode_13h - Wednesday, July 18, 2018 - link

    > Raja left AMD because of their lack of money, vision and their lies.

    According to whom? What lies?

    I rather think Raja took the fall for Vega being too slow, power-hungry, and late.
  • milkod2001 - Wednesday, July 18, 2018 - link

    NO, Raja left AMD to Intel for simple reason. He got better offer $$$ .
  • eva02langley - Wednesday, July 18, 2018 - link

    Raja definitely took the fall for Vega. He was on reflection when result came across and the disruptive tactics of RTG with their blind comparison tests trying to fool people.

    Let's be serious, Koduri bid that an iGPU could become a discrete GPU just by scaling power. He was wrong. Vega is an insane iGPU, but on the discrete side, it cannot match a designed discrete GPU from scratch.

    Koduri was trying to create a single GPU that could do everything. It didn't work and now AMD and Nvidia are pushing for multiple GPU solutions for the different market.
  • mode_13h - Thursday, July 19, 2018 - link

    Vega iGPU seems to hold up pretty well against a GTX 1030. Without beefing up your memory subsystem, as in the case of PS4 or XBox One X, that's probably as good as you can do.

    I'm sure they knew as much.
  • SydneyBlue120d - Tuesday, July 17, 2018 - link

    Thank you for this great interview!
  • Antony Newman - Tuesday, July 17, 2018 - link

    Awesome interview. Thankyou for interviewing JK.

    AJ
  • Drumsticks - Tuesday, July 17, 2018 - link

    Thanks for the interview! Quite enjoyed it. It reads better when you don't expect Jim Keller to spill all of the trade secrets for his company a few months after starting.
  • El Sama - Tuesday, July 17, 2018 - link

    Nothing in this interview about Zen/Ryzen, I read between lines you were not allowed to ask anything not related to Intel? And even then nothing about what they are cooking up either?
  • krumme - Tuesday, July 17, 2018 - link

    Inspiring. Thanx.
  • coldsolder215 - Wednesday, July 18, 2018 - link

    Wonder what this guy is getting paid to do both CPU design and PR work. With their competitive advantage eroding, Intel has taken to poaching outside talent at a *premium*.
  • mode_13h - Thursday, July 19, 2018 - link

    That's an interesting question, since some high-level employees' compensation must be made public, under SEC rules. I wonder if that applies to Jim or Raja.
  • mdriftmeyer - Wednesday, July 18, 2018 - link

    Jim Keller didn't design the Zen processor architecture. He was placed to oversee and jointly leverage his vast experience, combined with a brilliant team of engineers what could give AMD a long-term roadmap on CPU designs. Keller left long before the new roadmap by AMD for Zen2/3/4/5, etc now known were even being developed.

    His stops at Samsung and Tesla weren't day trips.
  • mode_13h - Thursday, July 19, 2018 - link

    To whom do you attribute the most credit for the difference in outcomes between Bulldozer vs. Zen? How much of the team was common to both product lines?
  • eva02langley - Thursday, July 19, 2018 - link

    Not a single guy for sure if you check the amount of talent Intel is stealing from AMD lately.
  • Maxiking - Thursday, July 19, 2018 - link

    I didn't know you could steal people, so if that's how AMD did treat them, like tools... Maybe that's the reason why they left, they wanted to be treated like human beings. Glad you gave us some insider info!

    Regardless, you have done your job for today, time to join /r/AMD!
  • mode_13h - Thursday, July 19, 2018 - link

    California has no non-compete agreements, so it's possible for an employee to directly go work for a competitor.

    As for convincing them to leave... well, a few things: offer them more $$$, signing bonus, stock options, interesting projects, and/or promotions. Finally, you've probably heard the saying "the grass is always greener on the other side of the fence"?

    So, if Intel is able to attract AMD employees, it doesn't necessarily mean AMD is treating them badly. Maybe Intel can just afford to treat them a little bit better.

    Now, I don't know how many AMD folks have left, but one tactic Intel *might* be doing is trying to pull enough AMD talent that AMD has to preemptively pay *everyone* more money. In this way, Intel might hire a handful of overpriced employees, but they get AMD to spend a much larger total on the entire staff, just trying to retain them. This saps AMD's R&D budget, preventing them from staffing up as many projects. Just a hypothetical.
  • Maxiking - Friday, July 20, 2018 - link

    As always, the red brigade is blowing things out of proportion because this is how AMD marketing has been working for years, they form themself as small company aiming to deliver only goodness to their customers but some evil outside forces /Nvidia, Intel/ try to stop that at any cost, to make it short, they always play the victim card.

    Also, they have a pretty big and serious inferiority complex, the famous poor volta campaign, fermi youtube campaign, the 1950x offer. It is done all the time when they look strong the problem is karma always backfires at them. Also, they have no problem using lies as their marketing tool, we all remember Bulldozer marketing slides, by AMD, Fx8150 was faster than 980x, of course, tested on FullHD with an gpu which could barelly handle the resultion so they found 2 cases were their cpu was faster by one or two frames and claimed the victory. Or the latest Vega campaign and so on, I could continue for hours.

    They are pretty much the same cancer as Intel and Nvidia but their market position is so poor it doesn't allow them using common anti competitive tricks.

    And this employee trick shows the same formula. Raja and Keller are freelancers, they will work for anyone who will pay them. Keller left AMD several years ago. BUT have you read it here? No, AMD paid trolls just keep repeating and marking them as AMD employees, how they have been stolen etc. How Intel intentionally cripple them and so on.

    The fact is there have been plenty of emoployees switcing between AMD and Intel, it was MUTUAL. Some people left Intel to join AMD and vice versa. But did the paid AMD trolls mention it? No.

    Because REEEEEEEEEEEEEE, Intel is bad, REEEEEEEEEEEEEE, AMD is love, AMD is everything. Getting really tiresome.
  • mode_13h - Friday, July 20, 2018 - link

    Are you accusing me of being "red brigade"? Because I'm just riffing off the hypothetical that Intel is stealing a bunch of AMD employees and the idea that perhaps it's due to AMD's mistreatment of them. I never claimed any of this was true, except for the non-compete bit.

    I was just trying to add some perspectives on the hypothetical scenario we're discussing. If you took my post in a different way, I'm sorry for you and have to wonder if you're not just being a bit of a troll.
  • JanJansson - Saturday, July 21, 2018 - link

    Boy, this interview really raises the bar on the definition of "pointless". Jim Keller is working on "stuff", he is "excited" and he is rather a hands on than a visionary. There are many products in the pipeline at Intel.. And they are at different stages....Hahahaha....
  • lordken - Tuesday, August 7, 2018 - link

    Nice to have interview with interesting person but well I'm kind of disappointed by this. I mean does the American exec/employees go through brainwash session after hire?
    I mean it was kind of disturbing all this "we intel" like he works for intel 10years or something and "intel dna" and other PR crap, "super cool products for happy customers" (like milk us more for 2C2/T cpus?)...sounds like PR article :(

    Also what I miss any question about spectre stuff and how it could impact HT at silicon/design lvl, how BK dumped shares etc (if "we are that great intel company" mantra is in his head already)
  • ballsystemlord - Wednesday, September 5, 2018 - link

    I really wish you would ask him and others about their methodologies in designing circuits. Such knowledge will be largely lost with their passing. We all know that he knows that he can't keep all this complexities in his head at once. Who could?

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