It will be more like, "We are on track" and it takes over four years to actually release the product due in one more year. 10nm won't replace 14nm for high end ANYTHING at Intel until 2021 or 2022. By that time, even if Intel skips 10nm and gets 7nm out for a 2021/2022 launch, AMD will be at 5nm at that point and the node will be more mature than the 7nm will be at Intel.
Intel will likely never outsource CPU fabbing, just because it means they have to expose their IP to another company that is offering foundry space. If they are working with Samsung foundry, my bet is it will be to offload components like memory controller ICs, modem chips, PCH chips, etc. to free up floor space for their higher margin items.
Ummm a good marketing post from TSMC. It will be a very limited production, mainly because right now EUV pellicles are not available yet, the best availability date is beginning 2021. Moreover 7nm+ looks like a dead duck, the yields are very low cause absence of pellicles in the wafer processing. A lot of marketing.
along with a lot of hot air, yet again intel fanbois are feeling the pinch? 7nm+ is in large scale production runs and I quote
"7nm EUV (7nm+) is in high volume production, with 15-20 percent density improvement compared with 7nm and “improved” power consumption (no figures given) compared with 7nm. Even if companies like AMD move to 7nm+, it wouldn’t be surprising if they choose to use the potential density improvements in other ways. When AMD moved to 12nm from 14nm at GF, for example, it didn’t actually change the size of its CPU design — it used the density improvement to provide additional space between features to boost clocks."
they are now risk producing 5nm cant wait for the next major Ryzen upgrade
Of course they are marketing but then there has been a lot negative BS rumors so they likely felt inclined. Your 2021 timeframe sounds about right to me. It's what AMD thinks as well since you have Zen3 summer of 2020 on 7nm+ then Zen4 likely mid 2021 which one would assume is 5nm but then that is not known yet.
TSMC is already at risk production on 5nm at this point. 2020 will have AMD on 7nm+, so by the time AMD switches to 5nm in 2021, 5nm will be mature enough for good yields on that node.
EUV is more of a tool for the fab process than some magic thing that makes things better. EUV is needed to continue to progress. Think of it in the way people love to talk about RAM latency figures while they ignore that the overall performance is what people care about, and adjusting/improving latency should be more for those who want to fine tune performance but isn't some magical thing that matters the most.
Certainly, if they ramp 5nm they have to drop 6nm and 7nm+ as they need all of their 10~20 tools for the many EUV layers. They offered all three EUV options because it is a hard sell.
Seems possible the next nodes come quicker than the current set did across all foundries? The common ingredient seems to be "more EUV." Obviously it's been a super long/expensive road to get the first commercially workable EUV sources, get the tools' uptimes high, etc. But once you're over that initial hump, doing it on more layers etc. may not be the hard part.
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Duncan Macdonald - Wednesday, October 23, 2019 - link
Will Intel reach 10nm for its more powerful desktop CPUs before AMD uses this process to produce 5nm ones ?shabby - Wednesday, October 23, 2019 - link
Intel is skipping 10nm just like it's skipping pcie4, both are yesterday's news... hello 7nm and pcie5! *intel wakes up*Gondalf - Wednesday, October 23, 2019 - link
Nope Ice Lake SP will have pcie4. Q2/2020TristanSDX - Wednesday, October 23, 2019 - link
nope, Comet Lake is Q1/20, Ice Lake desktop is Q4/20 or Q1/21 earliestsaratoga4 - Wednesday, October 23, 2019 - link
Ice Lake SP a Xeon processor, not desktop.outsideloop - Thursday, October 24, 2019 - link
nope, Comet Lake is delayed: https://youtu.be/A2BLLBSd3Yc?t=1094Xajel - Thursday, October 24, 2019 - link
I hope this will not be like "We will have 5GHz Pentium within few years".Targon - Thursday, October 24, 2019 - link
It will be more like, "We are on track" and it takes over four years to actually release the product due in one more year. 10nm won't replace 14nm for high end ANYTHING at Intel until 2021 or 2022. By that time, even if Intel skips 10nm and gets 7nm out for a 2021/2022 launch, AMD will be at 5nm at that point and the node will be more mature than the 7nm will be at Intel.ph00ny - Wednesday, October 23, 2019 - link
Weren't there talks of Samsung building some 14nm processors? It almost feels like they may end up asking them for 7nm and beyond in the futureFullmetalTitan - Thursday, October 24, 2019 - link
Intel will likely never outsource CPU fabbing, just because it means they have to expose their IP to another company that is offering foundry space. If they are working with Samsung foundry, my bet is it will be to offload components like memory controller ICs, modem chips, PCH chips, etc. to free up floor space for their higher margin items.Gemuk - Wednesday, October 23, 2019 - link
>Q2 2020So not in time for Apple A14, I assume? Perhaps the flagship Kirin could scrape by, just like this year?
Gondalf - Wednesday, October 23, 2019 - link
Apple will go to 7nm+. 5nm is a lot rushed for marketings.yu - Wednesday, October 23, 2019 - link
Unfortunately in many cases marketing outweighs the product.RSAUser - Friday, October 25, 2019 - link
Wasn't 5nm the direct successor with 7nm+ requiring major changes for compatibility?dudedud - Saturday, October 26, 2019 - link
I think its actually 6nm, then 5nm7nm EUV is not worth it.
hoodlum90 - Wednesday, October 23, 2019 - link
TMSC has already starting sampling the A14 based on 5nm to Apple. We will definitely see 5nm used in next year's iPhone.ph00ny - Wednesday, October 23, 2019 - link
All speculation at this point. Yield rate matters heavily specially for a bulk order such as iphoneGondalf - Wednesday, October 23, 2019 - link
Ummm a good marketing post from TSMC. It will be a very limited production, mainly because right now EUV pellicles are not available yet, the best availability date is beginning 2021. Moreover 7nm+ looks like a dead duck, the yields are very low cause absence of pellicles in the wafer processing.A lot of marketing.
FireSnake - Wednesday, October 23, 2019 - link
Your source being?Korguz - Thursday, October 24, 2019 - link
i would guess, himself. as its a made up reply.so no source... and no proof of what he said
alufan - Wednesday, October 23, 2019 - link
along with a lot of hot air, yet again intel fanbois are feeling the pinch? 7nm+ is in large scale production runs and I quote"7nm EUV (7nm+) is in high volume production, with 15-20 percent density improvement compared with 7nm and “improved” power consumption (no figures given) compared with 7nm. Even if companies like AMD move to 7nm+, it wouldn’t be surprising if they choose to use the potential density improvements in other ways. When AMD moved to 12nm from 14nm at GF, for example, it didn’t actually change the size of its CPU design — it used the density improvement to provide additional space between features to boost clocks."
they are now risk producing 5nm cant wait for the next major Ryzen upgrade
FreckledTrout - Wednesday, October 23, 2019 - link
Of course they are marketing but then there has been a lot negative BS rumors so they likely felt inclined. Your 2021 timeframe sounds about right to me. It's what AMD thinks as well since you have Zen3 summer of 2020 on 7nm+ then Zen4 likely mid 2021 which one would assume is 5nm but then that is not known yet.29a - Wednesday, October 23, 2019 - link
The article says the make their own pellicles.ksec - Wednesday, October 23, 2019 - link
Did you actually read the article? And even though N7+ was not used in A13, it is still HVM for Kirin.Targon - Thursday, October 24, 2019 - link
TSMC is already at risk production on 5nm at this point. 2020 will have AMD on 7nm+, so by the time AMD switches to 5nm in 2021, 5nm will be mature enough for good yields on that node.EUV is more of a tool for the fab process than some magic thing that makes things better. EUV is needed to continue to progress. Think of it in the way people love to talk about RAM latency figures while they ignore that the overall performance is what people care about, and adjusting/improving latency should be more for those who want to fine tune performance but isn't some magical thing that matters the most.
Anymoore - Friday, October 25, 2019 - link
Certainly, if they ramp 5nm they have to drop 6nm and 7nm+ as they need all of their 10~20 tools for the many EUV layers. They offered all three EUV options because it is a hard sell.twotwotwo - Wednesday, October 23, 2019 - link
Seems possible the next nodes come quicker than the current set did across all foundries? The common ingredient seems to be "more EUV." Obviously it's been a super long/expensive road to get the first commercially workable EUV sources, get the tools' uptimes high, etc. But once you're over that initial hump, doing it on more layers etc. may not be the hard part.